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Muslim Cabbies and Catholic Hospitals

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muslim hospitalMuslim cab drivers that violate the law by refusing to pick up blind fares that have guide dogs for reasons of religious conscience should not be in the taxi business. Similarly Jehovah's Witnesses should not open a hospital.

I know what your are thinking. If a religious group wants to provide faith-based health care what business is it of Government to tell them that if they service the general public they must utilize modern medical technology? This means that if a person needs a blood transfusion, the hospital must allow such operations even if it it goes against the conscience of their ministry. One can argue that such religious organizations can service poor rural areas where for-profit entities could not operate. Indeed many charity hospitals run at a loss.

Here is why I think it is better that we have no hospital rather than one affiliated with a religion.

In my home town of 60,000 souls there is but one hospital, not affiliated with any religious organization. At the present time it is facing financial difficulties. If it closes and moves elsewhere, the hole it leaves may invite a Catholic Hospital to come in. This would be a disaster. Once a Catholic Charity Hospital starts business, it would make it absolutely impossible for any other hospital to come back in and operate at a profit. We would be stuck with their view of how to dole out medicine and medical treatment. In my case I have enough money to avoid Catholic Hospitals, certainly I would never go to any religious Hospital if I could help it. But for many of the poor and certainly in emergency situations one can die because of their "conscience."

If a poor, non-Catholic woman who cannot get a helicopter ride to another hospital finds herself in the situation of needing an emergency abortion and is stuck at Mother Cabrini's or St Vincents Charity Hospital she will die. But, you may object, if there were no other hospital in the area, isn't she still better off with at least having some hospital as opposed to none? No. If the Catholic Hospital did not open in her city or town the ambulance would have brought her to the nearest hospital where she would at least have the chance of surviving. And if Catholic Hospitals were forced out of business, at least there would be the opportunity for non-faith-based institutions to open up shop.

Again, if a Muslim Hospital opens up to only treat Muslims, I am fine with that. But the minute they begin to treat the general public, they kill off any chance of secular hospitals operating profitably in that area. Here is my concern. The Saudi Princes are pouring money into this country for mosques, schools, and clinics. Imagine if Prince Aba-dabba opens a hospital in my town. Hey, you may say, what's wrong with a Muslim Hospital and if they are willing to pay for it what's the harm? If Muslims start opening hospitals and they are allowed to make medical decisions based on their faith, then my wife would have to be treated by a male doctor behind a curtain. No drugs with an alcohol medium can be dispensed. They could refuse to treat Aids victims on conscientious grounds since Islam abhors homosexuality. Women with fatal genetic diseases that require their sterilization would be refused treatment. The only good thing about infidels being sick is that while sick they are not subject to jizya.

Those who would say that Muslims have a right to open up hospitals, who cares, are not thinking clearly. If a Muslim Hospital were to open up in my town it would kill any chance of another, non-religious hospital from ever opening up again.

In the years after Roe v Wade more than 44 states have passed laws allowing hospitals the right of conscientious objection to certain medical procedures. This was a mistake. At present only about 11% of all community hospitals are faith-based. Since Muslims propagate at a rate greater than any modern civilized peoples we will soon see in America an explosion of Muslim Hospitals. The time is now to prohibit conscientious objection in medical services. I do not want Muslim Pharmacists to refuse me medication because his conscience refuses to deal with a Zionist Pig like myself. Scientology has enough money and enough adherents at present to open a Hospital to treat people with auditing and prayer.

chinese glass medicineBut this is absurd, you protest! Scientologists shouldn't be allowed to open hospitals for the general public. Because most of us are Christian in this country we never really examined the absurdity of allowing some religious group to dispense their version of medicine. What many of you may not even realize is that many Catholic Medical schools do not teach medical emergency abortion techniques. Imagine your wife or daughter absolutely needs a medical abortion to live. No choice in the matter. Your Catholic doctor wouldn't even know how to save her life even if he wanted to!

I am opposed to abortion except in cases the health of the mother is in jeopardy . This is my personal belief. But when treating the general public, Allah, Jehovah, Buddha, alien spaceships of Ron L Hubbard, and the Pagan Goddess Ashtoroth have no business in medicine, sorry.

Catholic Charities can help the elderly and poor with food programs, run schools, even
help with money toward health care, but providing medical treatment is the job of secular organizations.

As a bit of trivia, and in fairness to Muslims, I should give honorable mention that Hospitals were invented by Caliphs exactly 1300 years ago. Of course, nothing of any value has come from Islam for the past few hundred years.



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Comments from Old Comment System
  • It's not like Catholic hospitals historically horned in on health care markets to push out profit-oriented hospitals, Bernie! They invented hospitals in Europe (and many other places around the globe) and have always catered to the populations that no profit-oriented docs bothered with. Can you really put abortion in the same league as seeing eye dogs? And by the way, a Catholic hospital would never let a woman die under the circumstances you suggest. I'm a bit shocked at your atypical arguments here, i.e. as opposed to your usual right-on, brilliant, humorous and insightful ones. But you are certainly right that some folks had better stay out of the health care bidness altogether, Jack Kervorkian, the Hemlock Society, and George Soros come to mind... Ah well, that's one of the great things about this country that people can disagree without resorting to sawing off heads! All the best, D. Ox
  • Comment by: Dumb Ox [TypeKey Profile Page] on October 21, 2006 05:54 PM

  • I wasn't singling out Catholic Hospitals. But since abortion clouds the issue, let's leave that off for a moment. Let's take the situation where a woman who is not engaging in sex needs to take abortion pills, but not to abort any future fetus rather as an ameliorative against the debilitating effects of taking other certain medications such as steroids. Here we have no moral issues because there is no killing of human life, yet this woman cannot receive treatment at the only hospital in town, St Mary of Mercy. If this hospital did not hog up that medical space in her town, some other, secular, medical facility that can treat her would come in. I do not mean to take away the great, wonderful work that these Catholic Caregivers provide. It is beyond any gratitude one can offer. However, it comes at a price: that Catholic religious views over-ride any medical issues. I know you would like to believe that no hospital would let a woman die for religious reasons, but it's a fact. She would be turned away. Not because of callousness, but for the simple fact that they have no trained personnel to treat her. Of course, if you have any link showing even ONE single Catholic Hospital that ever performed an emergency medical abortion, I would love to see it. And once you see there aren't any such links, you have to ask yourself, "Is it possible no woman in any Catholic Hospital ever had a problem birth that required an emergency abortion?" Is that really possible? This is not an indictment against religious caregivers. Their motives are beyond reproach. I appreciate what they do. However, it is like having a surgeon with Tourettes syndrome. We appreciate the effort and their sincerity, but in the end such a person should not really be wielding a knife however noble their intentions.
  • Comment by: planck's constant [TypeKey Profile Page] on October 21, 2006 07:03 PM

  • D. Ox, I'm still curious, how would you feel if a Saudi-financed general hospital came into your town. Remember, they are financed with "our" oil moneys. They can operate at a loss for centuries. After a short time, when other area hospitals have closed their doors, you and your neighbors find that the only operating hospitals within an hour's drive are only Muslim Hospitals. How would you feel about your womenfolk being examined by a male doctor hidden behind a curtain and that no real physical exam is possible? Nothing there bothers you any? Suppose their pharmacy does not contain any drugs made in Israel (there are such) and which you absolutely have to have to survive. Suppose you are told that if you need that specific treatment you have to go to a non-Muslim pharmacy but you will not be treated in that hospital. I wish I could say this is hypothetical, but it is not. Aside from the Catholic Hospitals, how do you feel about Muslim hospitals in YOUR city?
  • Comment by: planck's constant [TypeKey Profile Page] on October 21, 2006 07:17 PM

  • The topic is confusing no doubt thus I will let ya duke it out with my buddy D.Ox..lol..thanks for the link!..:)
  • Comment by: Angel [TypeKey Profile Page] on October 21, 2006 10:19 PM

  • Well there's so much to cover, maybe a statement of principles is in order first. As a devout Catholic, with a hefty libertarian streak (as Catholics have always been rather suspicious of Caesar's grasping ways), I come to my own reasoned conclusions about things (which the Church rather encourages, despite a lot of noise to the contrary). One of my conclusions is that respect for human life from conception to natural death is one of the things on which the fullness of our humanity depends. Depart from the chief value of life, and liberty and happiness become meaningless. Debates over what sort of life is worthy of life have not had happy outcomes in the past and I doubt they ever will. Developing a habit of disposing of inconvenient lives, even and maybe especially at their beginning and at their end, is bound to lead to a hardening of hearts and instrumentalizing of lives for selfish purposes, treating persons as commodities, of the sort that we see more and more of every day in the world. So I'm "pro-life" or "pro-fetal rights" because I am pro-human happiness and I see the two as inextricably connected. Here we may not be on the same page at all, but at least you know where I am coming from, as they say. Now I see you've taken this seriously since you know that Catholic teaching proscribes oral contraceptives (I think that's what you mean by abortion pills) not only because of the diminishment of the sex act with its consequences for emotional and psychological development, but also because most of them are abortifacients, or work by preventing a fertilized egg from implanting, etc. O.K. so she's not having sex, and even her motives have nothing to do with sex. But Bernie! This is a total red herring. She doesn't need a hospital to get her prescription. I won't bother pointing out all the myriad of ways she could get her health needs met. If you are talking about the Morning After pill or about the actual abortion pill, you'd have to tell me what other therapeutic uses those have--I'm not aware of any. My understanding is that Catholic hospitals can give out emergency contraception in rape cases, but that is decided by their own ethical committees. I can categorically state that a Catholic hospital has NEVER "let a woman die" versus performing an abortion, simply because such a thing is never actually necessary. I can also agree with you though that a Catholic hospital (if acting properly within Catholic teaching, which is far from the case) has never "performed an emergency abortion" to "save the life of the mother." These are not actually contradictory statements. These are simply non-categories for Catholic medical ethicists and doctors. Catholic doctors actually take the Hippocratic oath seriously. Doctors who take lives or who make calculations on which life to save I would consider an abomination on the profession, and the habit of them thinking in those utilitarian terms can only lead to dangerous powers. Catholic doctors (again, if they are acting consistently with Catholic teaching) will ALWAYS try to save both the lives, of mother and baby, if the baby is at all viable. Always. That the baby may die despite their efforts to save both is normal, and it happens. That the mother may die from their efforts to save both is also possible. In an emergency, where the baby has to be delievered early, very early or whatever, in order for the mother to be saved, then that's what would happen. And despite all of the frantic scare-tactics of the abortion-o-philia crowd on the internet--and there are a ton of them worrying about abortion not being available on every street corner--these cases are also red herrings. The cases of ectopic pregnancies and such other non-viable pregnancies where women on the verge of death are allegedly turned away by Catholic hospitals are mythical, as far as I know. To sum that part up then, Catholic hospitals never "let" either a mother or baby die, in order to save one of them. But they certainly do not kill babies to save mothers, a scenario, again, which from my reading is rarely necessary. You can save a mother while also trying to save the baby in just about any scenario other than chemotherapy or radiation treatments for certain tumors. I don't want to get into those cases, but even there there is more than intentional killing of the baby as an option. I am for free markets as much as possible. Let the Saudis build their hospital. If they impose Islamic customs only fools (maybe paupers too) and Moslems would go there. (I'm not quite sure why your usual brilliant reasoning is so colored on this issue.) If the Saudis keep their intentions quiet while they eliminate the competition, my guess is as soon as they showed their sharia colors that another medical provider would come back to town, and pronto. As long as the market is kept free, property respected, and religious freedoms that are compatible with a pluralistic society protected, I don't see either the Saudi hospital case or Catholic hospitals as threats to good health care--and only the abortion/contraception case can be made against the Catholic ones. The values at the base of a person or of an institution are what count in the final analysis. The fact that we're talking about pregnancy and abortion, versus some other medical "condition" and "procedure," is not a minor detail. There are religious dictates that are based on rational, coherent beliefs and that can be harmonized with a pluralistic society, and then there are those that are arbitrary, have no basis in reason, and cannot exist in a pluralistic society. The latter covers many Islamic laws and customs. I wcould argue the rationality of Catholic moral teaching, its soundness and utility for the flourishing and happiness of persons and of mankind, any day. When Moslems attempt to do this, which they sometimes do, even academics, even women professors, it is barely short of hilarious. Veils on driver's licenses and seeing-eye dogs banned in cabs are actually much clearer cases of religious injunctions that are not tolerable in a free society. Facts and logic defeat such arbitrary things, and that's what we need to stick to in a free, pluralistic society--not pushing every religious dictate into the private realm, but weighing what insights religion has to offer, like any other system of ideas, in the marketplace of ideas and economics. One final note. I tend to think it is a mistake to consider "religious" hospitals in some distinct category from "non-religious" ones. Such a notion presumes value-free medicine, value-free science, and some sort of objective reasoning that does not depend on ultimate value commitments. Sorry, I think this is a false belief, and a false religious belief to be more precise. The alternative to traditonal (Jewish and Christian) values in medicine is to have the values of Epicurus and Bentham instead. And those values will always be administered by fallible PEOPLE in any case. Do you prefer to have your life depend on a bean counter more than on a person who hopes to handle you with love? Thanks for a good topic, Bernie. I don't expect to persuade anyone on abortion issues--apart from the academic and ethical arguments, you can't eliminate beliefs that come from people's deepest feelings and experiences, and I wouldn't want to eliminate those in any case! My apologies for typos, etc., just wanted to get a reply out tonight despite the late hour... All the best, D. Ox
  • Comment by: Dumb Ox [TypeKey Profile Page] on October 23, 2006 01:27 AM

  • p.s. I'm surprised you fell for Moslem propaganda! (kidding) They never invented anything. (not kidding) "The adoption of Christianity as the state religion of the empire drove an expansion of the provision of care, but not just for the sick. The First Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. urged the Church to provide for the poor, sick, widows and strangers. It ordered the construction of a hospital in every cathedral town. Among the earliest were those built by the physician Saint Sampson in Constantinople and by Basil, bishop of Caesarea. The latter was attached to a monastery and provided lodgings for poor and travelers, as well as treating the sick and infirm. There was a separate section for lepers" Wikipedia ... Before the Christian and Roman ones, there were hospitals in South Asia. The Muslims only took ideas from other people...
  • Comment by: Dumb Ox [TypeKey Profile Page] on October 23, 2006 07:50 AM

  • p.s. Note from Wikipedia: "The adoption of Christianity as the state religion of the empire drove an expansion of the provision of care, but not just for the sick. The First Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. urged the Church to provide for the poor, sick, widows and strangers. It ordered the construction of a hospital in every cathedral town. Among the earliest were those built by the physician Saint Sampson in Constantinople and by Basil, bishop of Caesarea. The latter was attached to a monastery and provided lodgings for poor and travelers, as well as treating the sick and infirm. There was a separate section for lepers" Muslims never invented anything! South Asians had made the first hospitals, Persians probably copied them, and Muslim Arabs stole the idea later from them. But the Greek and Roman practices were greatly developed by the Church.
  • Comment by: Dumb Ox [TypeKey Profile Page] on October 23, 2006 07:52 AM





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